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Related question «General issues»
Flight cancellation
Hello!
Please tell me, we booked a tour to the Maldives at the end of August with a departure from Kyiv on 10/29/14. Fly Dubai airline.
The travel agency sent vouchers for accommodation, insurance, and the tickets said that they would be closer to the departure dates, because. This airline does not issue them in advance.
09/22/14 I go to the Fly Dubai website and I don’t see our flight anymore (previously, when ordering the tour, it was), there is only one, but with a 21-hour wait for a transfer, which, of course, is unacceptable.
After I contacted the travel agency with a question about this situation, the travel agency answered only on the second day that the flight was canceled and there are 3 options for solving the problem, but each of the options is with a surcharge on our part.
Is this normal practice? And is it possible to somehow get something from them without additional payments?
Translated automatically from Russian. View original
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7 subscribers  • asked 2014-09-2510 years ago
Answers  •  82
аватар Anetka-gan
to say that the practice is "normal" is impossible. but this is a situation that happens. in case of various factors (breakdowns, weather, change of flight schedule, etc.)
what to do?!
1. you have a contract, it should contain options for solving different situations
2. there is insurance for non-flight / cancellation / delay of flights, in this case the situation has already occurred, insurance is unlikely to help.
3. usually when a flight is canceled, the airline solves such problems, you need to look at what the tickets were (fare)
аватар Pachok
If you bought a full tour, in which the cost of the flight is not highlighted as a separate item, then TO, TA, the air carrier must decide this issue themselves.
аватар HotLine
And they will launch a special flight with the necessary parameters.
Fly Dubai has cut its flight program after the downing of the Malaysian Boeing.
аватар Pachok
They will not launch the flight, but will offer another flight without additional payment. This is if normal.
аватар Thalika
Pachok, they bought exactly a package tour, the cost of the flight is not highlighted as a separate item. TA begins to talk about the cost of accommodation + transfer such and such ... and everything else is supposedly for the flight. And now he is offering, as the best option, to fly with Turkish Airlines, but you need to pay $ 400 for this flight.
I remember exactly the cost of the flight by Fly Dubai, which was indicated on their website for our flight, it was $ 1674, on the Turkish Air website the cost of tickets for the flight that we are now offered to fly is $ 1852 i.e. the difference is $178. TA says that in package tours the cost of air travel is a priori lower.
аватар HotLine
Standard package infantilism. It is strange to see this from a samtourist (this is Pachok).

There is no other suitable flight. Judging by the question - either a long transfer, or an extension of the tour, or to fly more expensively by another company on the indicated dates.
Explain why the operator, agent should be responsible for the actions of third parties?
Your argument "bought a full tour" obliges them to only one thing - the operator (agent) must either provide this tour or return all the money. They are not required to make any changes at their own expense.
аватар HotLine
I will add
1. Fly Dubai flights are not charter flights. Operators buy or reserve blocks of seats on their flights. And Fly Dubai sells most of the seats itself. Therefore, the question of the price of the flight in the package is ambiguous.
2. The right agent should explain and show everything to the right tourist - reservations (there are prices), invoices for payment, correspondence with the operator.
3. I have a feeling (only) that your agent is doing what he can do. Try to talk openly with them - "I do not claim your living wages, I want to make sure that I have no other way to fly, how to pay the specified amount." Indicate your position - "I can refuse the changed tour and you will be obliged to return the entire cost of the tour to me." It will be difficult for the agent and operator to do this - there are obligations to hotels. Therefore, they will try to resolve the issue by a compromise option.
The correct decision is to pay for the flight at the net price (i.e. without commissions and what it is), accommodation commissions remain unchanged. The task is only to separate these components.
аватар Pachok
"Explain why the operator, agent should be responsible for the actions of third parties?"
Because the counterparty under the contract with the tourist is TA.
TA is responsible to the tourist.
TO is responsible to TA.
Airline - before MOT.
If the airline has not fulfilled its obligations, then sanctions under the clauses of the agreement between TO and AC come into force. And then in reverse order. A tourist should definitely not be the last one in this chain. As a self-tourist, I understand this very well.
аватар Pachok
Thalika, try it differently: look at their website for the cost of ground handling only. Usually there is such an option when choosing a tour.
Last year I bought a "package" in the UAE, where the flight was calculated from 430 dollars. At that time, Wizz Air flew to Dubai for 200, but to another airport, where the transfer was also considered somehow quite expensive. As a result, we took only a hotel, a visa and insurance from TO. We bought the Wizz tickets ourselves, got a taxi. For three, the difference was 600 bucks.
аватар HotLine
What is it? Why does a smart person replace logic with stubbornness? Even in the simplest commodity-money relations, the seller's responsibility is not absolute. In certain situations, the buyer has to resolve the issue with the manufacturer of the product, and not with its seller. For example, carry the purchased phone to the manufacturer's service center.
In order not to be unfounded, I will quote a clause from the contract with the tourist, which recommends concluding one of the operators (and believe me, there are similar clauses in the templates of all operators).
And they are not because they are so bad, but because it is logical.
аватар HotLine
"Travel agent (Tour operator) is not responsible and does not pay any compensation for changes in the schedule, delay or cancellation of flights, changes in air traffic conditions, replacement of aircraft of one type to another, closure of airports for meteorological, technical and other reasons before the change of the Tour program, for loss, damage or lack of the Tourist's luggage, preservation of his documents, valuables and personal speeches, for the actions of other carriers during the trip. statutes), other regulations and rules issued in accordance with them.
In this regard, all statements, claims, calls for deficiencies related to transportation, including delays in departure or late arrival of flights, etc., are submitted by the Tourist directly to the carrier. "
аватар Pachok
This reminds me of "there are claims to the buttons?"
And then you rhetorically ask why I don’t like domestic MOT and TA ... for that. A tourist, buying a single product, in general, should not delve into the nuances of pricing - how much "weighs" in the final cost and why.
A case from life - people bought not even a tour, just air tickets with a complex route, including several transfers, through the website of one European ticket agent. A mid-segment flight operated by Lufthansa was suddenly cancelled. Within half an hour, the agency offered a choice of several other options (more expensive, no one gave Lufthansa prices) and no one even hinted at additional payments. Because it's an advance payment, because it's a normal contract, because an entrepreneur has entrepreneurial risks. Ours prefer to earn profit, but reject risks.
аватар HotLine
Yes, what is it? It's not even stubbornness.
1. A ticket agent is not a package tour agent. A ticket agent is a person authorized by the carrier. These are different things. If this is not clear to you, then name any product familiar to you and I will describe the analogy.
2. We do not know the tariff at which the flight of your "people" was bought. For example, I will tell another European story. A man bought a complex flight with a single ticket for the entire route. Arrives at one resort, stays for two days, flies further, immediately transfers, flies further, lives for a week, flies further, etc. We know that there are no problems with delays and transfers. If the flight is late for the connecting one, the carrier is obliged to land on another one free of charge. The carrier that offered such a fare is responsible for all connections and segments. But there was a problem - the person did not show up for the first segment. Due to the non-appearance of the passenger for the first segment, the carrier canceled all other segments without compensation. Although the person managed to get to the second segment (he got there on his own). And the carrier was right - such a tariff. A fare that bears risks for delays and transfers, but cannot be responsible for a passenger's no-show for the next segment.
аватар Pachok
Tariff of a specific carrier. In my case, there was an agent and there were different carriers.
аватар HotLine
Yeah.
Read what you yourself wrote - "The tariff of a certain carrier." I repeat - "carrier". I repeat - Lufthansa. This means that Lufthansa had a tariff in which, if a flight is canceled, a replacement for any other without surcharges is provided. This also happens.
You do not want to understand what we have already discussed with you. By definition of the concept of "agent" - he acts on behalf of, on behalf of and in the tariffs of the one on behalf of whom he acts. The ticket agent acts on behalf of the carrier. This is his difference from the travel agent, which we are discussing here.
аватар Pachok
You are still not reading carefully. Not Lufthansa changed to another flight, but the agent offered flights from other airlines. We are not talking about a specific tariff of one specific carrier, as in your example. Different airlines, different fares, different costs, but the agent did all this, the passenger only agreed to a certain flight.
The argument "All operators do this" is not an argument at all. We accept things as they are until we come across something better, more comfortable. And the option "pay me extra for the sausage ALREADY paid for, because NOW soy isolate has risen in price" is a purely soviet approach, when not a service for the client, but the client is extreme.
In the conditions of the task - a package tour with a fixed cost. Not separately land, separately flight. I am sure that the price is also indicated in the contract with the tourist.
аватар HotLine
I read carefully. And I give real arguments. He even cited a quote from the contracts of “all operators” (it turned out that this is not an argument for you either). A person needs to make a decision. Not by European ticket agent.
According to Lufthansa. It is strange to me that you do not understand the participation of Lufthansa in the situation you described. Although they themselves wrote about the tariff of the carrier, which was originally Lufthansa.
To make it clearer, let's look at the situation step by step. The man bought the flights. Paid the agent, the agent paid the carriers. And suddenly Lufthansa cancels the flight. What happens next? Do you think that Lufthansa's tariff was such that it returns only the cost of the flight, and a good agent AT HIS OWN EXPENSE, without being guilty of anything, takes risks for which he, in principle, cannot be held responsible. Is it logical? Of course not.
I believe that Lufthansa, in compensating for its decision to cancel the flight, refunds the cost of the alternative flight to the agent. Is it logical? Certainly. Compensates the one who made the decision. Moreover, we, as experienced tourists, know that in some cases the carrier MUST do this. That is why your favorite Wiz Air informs you about flight cancellations in advance.
аватар HotLine
And the example you gave with sausage in real life looks like this: “Unfortunately, due to the cessation of the production of soy isolate of the YUYUY brand, we are not able to supply your favorite sausage. Therefore, in accordance with the terms of clause 10.10 of the agreement signed by you, we are ready to return your prepayment in full. If you still want to get it, then we can use soy isolate brand YAYAYA in the production of sausages. But its price is higher, so the cost of sausage will be so much. We apologize for the changed circumstances that are not in our sphere of influence. You know that for technological reasons we are not able to buy isolate in advance. It comes to us directly at the time of the production of your order.
This is how it looks in real life, in all countries.
аватар Pachok
"""And suddenly Lufthansa cancels the flight. What happens next? Do you think that Lufthansa's fare was such that it refunds only the cost of the flight, and a good agent AT YOUR OWN ACCOUNT, without being guilty of anything, takes risks, for which, in principle, he cannot be held responsible.
I believe that Lufthansa, in compensating for its decision to cancel the flight, refunds the cost of the alternative flight to the agent. Is it logical? Certainly. """
Lord ... yes, I am writing about this: the carrier resolves its issues with the operator, the operator - with the agent, - the agent with the tourist. I am not suggesting that the agent bear the difference in cost. I suggest not to involve a tourist here. I am sure that compensation from a / c for a flight cancellation may well cover the difference for a more expensive ticket from another airline.
аватар Pachok
Like the sausage example. It is extremely rare (and in my practice - almost never) that the clause on the return of money for undelivered goods is not limited to simply returning the entire amount. Usually fines are described on the part of the seller in this case. In all countries:). Contracts like this are my speciality.
Is the agent ready to pay a tourist a fine for an unfulfilled tour or flight? And the operator - the agent?
аватар HotLine
1. And here then the scoop, if the flight was canceled by an Arab carrier. And then it was necessary to praise not the ticket agent, but the Lufthansa. The agent performed the functions of an agent. AND ALL.

2. Seats on Fly Dubai were charter. They are cheap precisely because all the risks of possible compensation are excluded from the price. That is why low-cost tickets are cheap and Lufthansa is expensive.

3. And you have not seen clauses in contracts that say that the supplier cannot be held responsible for the actions of third parties related to this and that. Weird.
All this must be properly understood and formulated in order to achieve the desired result. And the adviser needs to take responsibility for his advice, and not engage in hatred.
аватар sandra-art
I looked here for tickets for October 29 and there is a Fly Dubai flight. and there are UIA flights.
why pay the Turks? (they are of course a chic airline, but alas, expensive)
I don’t really know when you have a return flight, maybe the problem is just in it.
аватар Thalika
Fly Dubai has a flight on the 29th October with a 21 hour layover, unfortunately
аватар sandra-art
look at the UIA flight, maybe it will suit you. he arrives 4.5 hours earlier in Dubai. that is, the docking will be an hour and a half)
аватар Pachok
hotline,
1. Scoop - to make the tourist extreme.
2. Lufthansa has some of the cheapest tickets. Only low-cost ones are cheaper, but not by much. Why do you think Fly Dubai had a charter?
3. If I met, then so rarely that it was not imprinted in my memory. As a rule, there is no such item. If you mean force majeure, then quite standard disasters are described there, which in no way include private actions of firms and organizations.
So you can go far if you write that the seller never guarantees the price :) What's the point in contracts then?
"All this must be correctly understood and formulated in order to achieve the desired result"
Thank you. For 15 years of writing and examination of international contracts, there were no "blunders". There were conflicts with the "lawyers" of the customer firms, but they were resolved peacefully. Especially after it turned out that the "lawyers" graduated from the correspondence department of the Faculty of Law of the Poplavsky Institute of Culture. I'm not kidding - a real life story.
аватар HotLine
Pachok
1. What is a "scoop", I know better than you. Lived longer. But I also know the universal rule and the scoop, and capitalism, and Lufthansa, and any business. It sounds almost like you wrote - "the client pays for everything."
2. Regarding the Fly Dubai charter, I already wrote above - "Fly Dubai flights are not charter flights. Operators buy or book blocks of seats on their flights. And Fly Dubai sells most of the seats itself. Therefore, the question of the price of a flight in a package is ambiguous." I'll add right away why I think so.
аватар HotLine
We have already discussed the principles of the tourist business here many times. Many self-tourists consider operators to be pure intermediaries, as a rule, superfluous. And this would be the case if the operators were simply reselling seats on Fly Dubai. But we know that this is not so. Operators create a tourist product. And in order for it to be competitive in price, they buy seats on flights (and sometimes entire flights), conclude seasonal contracts with hotels, create receiving and sending offices, etc. Therefore, when Fly Dubai canceled the flight, the operator lost a competitive price for the flight. In this case, no one intends to compensate for the risks. Fly dubai because he sold these seats at a low rate. The operator because he does not take the risks of the carrier (quotes from contracts). And this is not a pure scoop, because the operator offers the same tour for the same price. True, with a long transplant. The system broke down with the cancellation of some flights. Alas.
аватар Pachok
"True, with a long transfer."
And with a surcharge. Or have I missed something?
"2. Regarding Fly Dubai charter, I already wrote above - "Fly Dubai flights are not charter flights."
It's exactly the opposite up there:
"2. Seats on Fly Dubai were charter."
аватар Pachok
But I also know the universal rule and the scoop, and capitalism, and Lufthansa, and any business. It sounds almost like you wrote - "the client pays for everything."
Of course it pays. Only in a normally functioning business field does he receive an adequate product or service.
аватар HotLine
Of course, in export-import operations, there is rarely a situation where the supplier cannot manage the entire production and delivery process. In extreme cases, he limits his liability to the minimum terms of delivery - pickup, ex-works.
But in complex products, a situation similar to the one discussed is also possible. I quote:
In an international contract of sale, the price of goods can be fixed in the following way:
• fixed price;
• price with subsequent fixation;
• moving price;
• moving price.
The sliding price provides for fixing the initial price in the contract, which may be subject to change during the term of the contract, subject to changes in the level of production costs for the goods ordered under this contract.
Appreciated your life story :-)
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